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debt like that from going to college for four years or five years." What I'm see- ing with some of my fami- ly members is it took them five years to get through college because the class- es were full that they need- ed to take for the degrees they wanted. They could monitor the class, but they couldn't take it. Isn't that strange? I think it's a trick for the colleges to get an- other year's tuition out of them. Brooks: I think the majority of the designers I've known are non-degreed people. They've come from different backgrounds, the oppor- tunity presented itself, and they had the skills to be able to absorb what needed to be done and to go after it. It's something that most learned at the shoulder of another designer in the beginning. The college system can be ex- pensive. I opted to teach in the Community College System here because it had been so vocational in con- tent and affordable com- pared with the university system. Private schools, such as Mary Sugden's Copper Connection back in the early 2000s, were an answer to some of the companies that could af- ford to send their employ- ees to her facility. In Eu- rope, Premier EDA taught a lot of people as well as the FED in Germany, PIEK in the Netherlands, and Collin County Commu- nity College in Texas. It's not easy to find a place to learn PCB design in any community. Shaughnessy: What do you think about online training? Do you think with webinars and You- Tube that there's some value to that? Every- body seems to be doing it. One of Bill's sculptures, "Passion and Heart," resembles the Western works of Frederic Remington.