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SEPTEMBER 2020 I DESIGN007 MAGAZINE 73 whether it's single-sided or multilayer, would be able to pick up the advantages of using these types of materials right away. Shaughnessy: Automotive is one of the big drivers. I just read that automotive sales are up this year in North America, despite COVID- 19. Do you see that? Brandman: We're involved in several North America-driven automotive programs in the full cycle, from supporting design, prototyp- ing, and production. The year started really strong, where pretty much all of the programs we're involved in were at either full capacity or close to full capacity. Then COVID-19 hap- pened. Because automotive is not part of the critical supply chain, a lot of that business was completely shut down for 4–6 weeks. April was a very scary month for everybody because no one really knew what was going on in the world and the impact COVID-19 was really going to have. Globally, when everyone understood where things are at with COVID- 19, the factories opened back up. When they opened back up, they didn't go from 0% to 25%. They went from 0% to 125% because they needed to make up the time on these programs from having the factory shut down. Other than being shut down on these programs for a short period of time, it has been a very strong year, production-wise. Barry Matties: On the automotive side, what trends do you see? We see a lot of e-cars com- ing out. How is that playing into your market? Do you see more demand in that area? Brandman: We're looking at that right now. We have people reaching out to us with respect to e-cars, but keep in mind the production of e-cars at the moment is only a small fraction of what gasoline cars are, so many of those opportunities are still in their infancy. And a typical design cycle for the electronics and automotive industry until it goes to production is a few years. Matties: It seems like an emerging sector. Brandman: There's a huge opportunity for growth. There are a lot of opportunities for prototypes floating around right now, which is really in a power conversion side of things. The top market we're focused on is LEDs. Power conversion is also another market where we do a lot of business, and that's mov- ing heat, but it's really focused on electrical installation and assurance of that electrical installation. Matties: Are the heat demands greater or less for e-car aside from the LEDs? Brandman: Like power conversion, you need to have a solid dielectric to ensure electrical installation. You're going to be able to move heat, but there are going to be some barriers as far as how much you can move because you need to have that electrical installation. On the lighting side, a lot of the high-end, high-power LED headlights work with a pedestal light design where the LED has an isolated thermal pad, and they're putting the isolated thermal pad right on top of the copper heat sink. The electrical pads are still on top of the dielec- tric. They're moving the heat from the LED right into the heat sink with no dielectric. The capability to move heat in that pedestal light- ing scenario is significantly greater than in the typical power design because in power, you're going to have pretty solid dielectric, and you're going to be pretty limited by it. Matties: There are also environmental aspects of thermal that will never go away. Brandman: Typical automotive testing for lam- inates and PCBs is about -40°C to +125°C, and they do a lot of thermal cycles in this area. I'd say automotive is one of the markets where they do the largest amount of thermal reliabil- ity testing on the PCBs. It's very hot in Ari- zona, but on the other side, people are driving the car in Alaska in the winter, and it has to work in both scenarios, no matter what. Matties: That's a tall order to fill. You men- tioned more communication around the