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OCTOBER 2022 I DESIGN007 MAGAZINE 19 25-micron line and space because, if we can develop that capability, I believe we can get designers to design around that. We're not going to have a lot of competition." We put together a roadmap that we're in the process of implementing. We're not there yet, and we've got a couple pieces of equipment we need to buy, but we're moving in that direction and it's feasible. Shaughnessy: is is the roadmap that you show your customers or is this internal? Snogren: It's internal now. We have established the direct imaging equipment capability and the dry film capability. We have the inspec- tion and test equipment capability. We need to upgrade our microvia filling system and purchase a differential etcher. Once we have the via filling system and the etcher, we'll be able to produce products with 25-micron lines and spaces. Whether our yields are going to be great, I don't know. But typically, these are tiny little boards so even if the defect density is a bit high, we will still have good board yields within a panel. Johnson: Right. What do we tell designers? Snogren: First, work with a vendor or several vendors to determine whether they can lay out a manufacturing roadmap. e roadmap for many OEMs could say, "We're seeing finer- pitch BGAs. We're going to have to use 0.3- mm or 0.25-mm BGAs and we're going to need 25- and 30-micron lines and spaces. We need you all to get there because we have a whole line of products coming in the next few years that require this." en you pick a process and say, "We're going to use ultra-thin foil. I can already buy 1.5-micron foil, so we'll start developing this capability slowly and put together the roadmap." e designer can work with the fabricator to establish the design crite- ria and test vehicles and put that together. e fabricator will need to buy some equipment to support that. From a designer standpoint, if they don't want to go straight to Asia and get what they want, they need to work with a fabricator and design around the fabricator's capability or develop that capability along with the fabrica- tor. But it's the chicken or the egg. As a fabrica- tor, do you invest in that capability? It's going to cost you money if you don't have potential orders coming in. Six to eight years ago when you bought an LDI machine, you were limited at maybe 2-mil lines and spaces. en they went down to 1-mil line and space, but they were expensive. Now, if you're buying a new direct imaging sys- tem, there's no reason not to get it with 25- or 12-micron line and space capability. You can buy an LDI machine today for not a lot more money that's capable of getting you into ultra HDI, and it's still going to sup- port doing your 3- to 4-mil line and space jobs. at's what happened at Royal Circuits. We bought a machine, not even for that capability, and I found out, "Hey, I can do 25-micron lines and spaces on this thing." We didn't even plan for that one. Shaughnessy: Herb, thank you for your time today. is has been very informative. Snogren: Happy to help. ank you. DESIGN007