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64 The PCB Design Magazine • July 2017 more useful? And yet, it's totally non-produc- tive as you know. You spend all that money on producing paperwork and it's gone. O'Neil: Absolutely, it is a waste. It's interesting; we've made great strides in getting that 1502 [Dodd-Frank Act, Section 1502 on conflict min- erals] frozen and the enforcement somewhat curbed, because I don't think anyone is going to stop the implementation of conflict-free. I think the good news is, we didn't come in with a "just get rid of it because we want to buy less expensive things" attitude. We came in with a belief in the intent of the legislation. We believe there's a better way to achieve those means even at the smelter level, and don't make the three-person firm dedicate one of those three people to just doing the paperwork. Goldman: But they bring up this conflict min- erals, but in reality, you need the particular minerals. Our industry needs these minerals. But they seem to say these minerals are by as- sociation conflict minerals as opposed to just the ones from a certain area. That's what I seem to hear from the feedback. We need gold. We know that there are other sources, but some- how, they lump it automatically as all gold is a conflict mineral. They say to just stop using it but you can't stop using it. O'Neil: The tungsten, gold and the tantalum. Those are the minerals that are classified as be- ing conflict-managed. There are some money operations in the DRC [Democratic Republic of Congo] which are following horrific practices that others aren't, and by avoiding the region in total it makes reporting easy, but everyone in the region suffers. Goldman: Then you'd be getting your gold and tantalum elsewhere. O'Neil: And even then, you're not sure because a lot of the gold and a lot of the metals that we use, a portion of those are recycled. So they're reclaimed. Goldman: Do they count that too? O'Neil: Well, that's part of the challenge, and that's why there's never been an enforcement activity. Goldman: Well if there were, then there could be a challenge to it. Then whole thing would get knocked down. O'Neil: Exactly. Goldman: And so they don't do that. They just hold it over your head all the time. O'Neil: The town seems to be very open to reworking versus repealing, and so I think re- working Dodd-Frank seems to be something that looks like it's going to get done, especially in the conflict minerals. Goldman: Well hopefully in a reasonable amount of time. I wish they would regulate the energy industry as tightly as they regulate our industry. Every time I hear about another coal mine superfund site, all that drainage and the underground fires, or another government nuclear energy superfund site, I think, wait a minute... O'Neil: Where were they then? IMPACT Interviews Sen. Tammy Duckworth (D-IL) speaks with attendees at IMPACT Washington, DC 2017.